Van Gogh

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Posts by Van Gogh

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  127

  ok why havent we got the truth?

  by PMJ in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  ok as you have gathered im a wittness and i for one beleave we have the truth.not saying every thing is or has all ways been right because we live in a imperfect world with imperfect people.but as far as jehovah being god and jesus being his son.and the coming war of arrmegeddon.i would say we have the truth.i no about all the mistakes and misunderstandings we have had in the past.but i feel that is past and we have moved on.and abandoned i no what you all say about the year 607 being wrong but that date all deapends on it desolation was 70 years or not.so im just trying to understand how some of you say you lernt you was being lied to?

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  Van Gogh

  PMJ,
  "i beleave the bible says abstain from blood.and if it said abstain from coke then i would not take coke."
  The Bible indeed does not say to abstain from coke. If it did, you say you would abstain from coke.
  Does your snorting habit compensate for your lack of research, and does it give you courage to post here despite this?
  Do you feel that your posting here in defense of the WTS and its rules prohibiting blood and coke will somehow compensate for your admitted habit?
  Is coke the reason you are spelling "beleave" instead of "believe"?
  If you really want to use coke without a bad conscience, then release yourself from the prohibitions of the Botch Tower Society by reading Carl O. Jonsson's: "The Gentile Times Reconsidered"
  Get it at: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0914675079/qid=1136669624/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-1333327-9162204?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
  Most of us have read it, and it might explain the misunderstanding.
  Contact us after reading it.
  Theo
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  59

  What MUST Jw's believe that they don't KNOW they believe?

  by AlmostAtheist in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'm looking for beliefs of jw's that have the consequence of also requiring some other belief that they may not like or be able to explain.. for instance, you probably believe that there are an infinite number of numbers, since you can always add 1 to any number and make a new one.. what you may not think about as a consequence of that belief is that you can also start with 2, add 2, and create an infinite series of even numbers.

  the set of even numbers is infinite, and the set of whole numbers (which would fully encompass the even numbers) is also infinite.

  so which set is bigger?

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  Van Gogh

  "I'm looking for beliefs of JW's that have the consequence of also requiring some other belief that they may not like or be able to explain."
  
  
  I can only grasp about 20% of what you guys are talking about, so will probably make an ass of myself here,
  But: If God is infinite and omniscient and so on and so forth, then why was his perfection and goodness NOT boundless in the sense that it was at some point bordered by the the abyss of IMperfection or even evil?
  Who created evil if there was never any in God to start with?
  Did Satan have powers over the law of morality to create another moral standard?
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  25

  How can anyone understand?

  by justsomedude in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have a question that not many people would understand.

  i have faith that despite how crazy it sounds, most on this board will probably know what i am talking about though.

  i'm on the path to leaving this cult that has been a part of my life for more than 27 years.

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  Van Gogh

  Welcome justsomedude, and thanks everybody for making some wonderful and comforting comments.
  Dude, you will find plenty of understanding on this board. Most of us were in the same boat. That's why we come here.
  I myself, for one, can truly identify with you - I was in your shoes at your age but for some reason came back only to leave a couple of months ago. That's why I still find myself about 10 years behind in my development.
  I remember at 19 years old and in the troof, feeling that everything was too late already. BUT IT IS NOT! The older I got, the more I found that to be a temporary delusion. At your age I went to university and later got my Master's. Man, the world is your oyster!
  Your delay might just as well be seen as a head start compared to others. You are special in your very own way and have acquired the kind of wisdom and insight into life that your peers do not yet have. THAT is why you think people cannot understand you. Also, remember, at your age, many (ex)jdubs are already bogged down in some unhappy teenage marriage - sometimes even with kids.
  I was depressed for years - most of my early life probably. But I have found depression to be a self-sustaining downward spiral if left to continue unchecked. Depression and its cause (it has, of course, a serious cause) can delude you and cloud your thinking - and will eventually stall you. What has happened can never be undone. Thinking about it won't bring you a solution - the "riddle" in your head cannot be solved or sometimes even truly analyzed." But it doesn't have to be. Focusing on positive activity will break the spell of the darkness.
  YOU ARE FREE NOW - you have learnt its meaning. Just think of the freedom you have now to bond with the world and the people in it - to feel at one with the cosmos, to truly love and accept its members, to be at peace with them without having to judge in order to "understand" and "stake out." Only then, when you truly reflect to what others have to say and do, listen to them, will you "connect." THEN, they will understand somehow, whether you give details or not. A factual account will not transfer a message about your experiences and your feelings - but dig deep down in your heartfelt emotion with few words, and others will understan and "know."
  Mere words can never truly convey what transpired, and in all honesty - our innermost "self" is only seldom in its entirety grasped by another - it is OK, and we can do with slightly less.
  A couple of weeks ago, for the first time, I freely admitted something to some guy I, of course, trusted enough to somehow understand, someone who, IMO, deserved to for once get an honest answer about this mysterious unfathomable "thing" about me. I simply explained to him a few things about my upbringing and said: "I was raised in a cult." Things seemed to make sense to him more than any excuse I'd ever given him before. AND IT FELT GREAT!
  We love you Dude! Keep coming back.
  Theo
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  39

  Parousia and invisibe presence

  by Hellrider in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i`m discussing something with a jw.

  i claim that the greek "parousia" doesn`t mean invisible presence, it simply means "presence".

  isn`t that correct?

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  Van Gogh

  Isn't the "invisible presence" theory not also a great way to justify the "nessecity" of a representative role of (their concept of) a Faithful & Discreet Slave?
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  33

  Hi ~ new here...

  by Riverwatcher in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'm so happy to have found this site.

  i'm not a j/w, but my son is.

  several years ago, he became involved with a j/w, although she was being shunned at the time.

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  Van Gogh

  just feel paralyzed with fear that if we try to point out some stuff that we see as wrong with the Organization that this will be the fuel he needs to cut off communication with us. In other words, we don't want to give him any reason to cut ties with us. We don't want to challenge him to the point of making him run, even though it kills us.

  Welcome Riverwatcher,

  Your quote shows great perception. Your position is a great starting point to work from. Take your time, because it could prove to be a bumpy ride - but if you play your cards right, you might very well come out on top.

  There are a lot of (past) threads on this forum that deal with your predicament all the time - it will also provide you with many insights into JW sub-culture. You will also need to do some homework before you make any move. IMO, one of the most interesting introductions (for you!) into the Watchtower Society is "Crisis of Conscience" (2004 ed) by Ray Franz or, although a bit outdated, M. James Penton's "Apocalypse Delayed."

  If you maintain trust and normal communication, you can show an interest in JW to your son. This will draw close to you. You will then be able to ask some questions on certain topics in a way that will make him happy to answer them. As long as JW see you as a potential convert, you will able to keep this up. They will want to "teach" you the truth, and as they think they actually have the "truth" they will make an effort to answer them (which they eventually will fail to do of course). Show your true colors and you will already have lost.

  Take care,

  Theo
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  43

  "Where else are we to go?" - How to answer?

  by AlmostAtheist in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hey guys,.

  assume you're talking to a faithful, indoctrinated jw that is only now getting some doubts rolling in his head.

  let's say that he doesn't have much info yet, hasn't done much research, and is pretty scared of anything that smells "apostate".

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  Van Gogh

  AA,
  I know many sincere and devout jdubs who wonder “WHERE to go.” I did so myself. To make things worse, many of them even think that that Jah’s Chosen can be rotten to the core – just like ancient Isreal once was.
  What they don’t realize, is that the “concept” was flawed from the start. Bible Student/JW have become “apostate” after discovering this from the word go. We are all in different stages, and let’s be honest, there is no answer to this question: there is nowhere else to turn to for the kind of “truth” and ready answers to everything. It is like somebody losing his/her partner in death after a long marriage. Of course you couldn’t just say to the bereaved spouse: Listen now, what are you complaining about. There are lots of gorgeous man/woman out there – use your eyes and just look!
  I think the KEY is to start first with breaking the spell of this false “concept” that has been hardwired into the brain – of which they were captives: the “concept” that they were SOMEWHERE to start with in the first place.
  IMO the KEY is disproving the 607BCE/1914 myth, together with a brief historical analysis of the 1918/1919 events. If you can prove that the “concept” of the FD&S claim is totally groundless, you can consequently move on to the obvious reality that such FD&S is to be found nowhere else – presto: the FD&S interpretation and organization “concept” is false! It did the trick for me in no time: I was ready for as well.
  Don’t forget that some jdubs (except for the abusive-wife syndrome sufferers of course) might even find the prospect of having the concrete proof of this faulty “concept” somewhat appealing – they are probably not even aware of the possibility of such concrete proof – proof that would provide them with freedom of their predicament.
  I myself, like many others I guess, already despised and loathed almost everything about the bOrg. I just thought that it was God’s way of testing us.
  Even after this there is still the process of bereavement (not for me – feels great), and from what I’ve been reading on this board, many indeed keep looking for the real deal for a while.
  Also, IMO, you cannot just “tell” anybody these things. It must be planted in someone’s mind. You have to “sell” the idea by painting an appealing picture of freedom of conscience in somebody’s mind. Just like the WTS took the time to groom, love bomb, and initiate us into becoming the exclusive members of the paradise club. Just think of it as a “bible study.” Once they get it, the sky is the limit. Some even become atheists.
  Sorry about rambling on .
  Theo
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  22

  All messed up, please help !!!!!!!!!!

  by Genesis in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok this morning i wrote about panic crisis so i think i have one now.

  i was on the forum and in my mailbox there was a message that said me :.

  i could not help but feel for you very much.

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  Van Gogh

  Welcome Genesis & Ellie J - I'V READ SOME GREAT COMMENTS HERE
  Being confronted with JW environment "triggers" some of the stuff that was hard-wired into our thinking.
  It is like a former drug addict. Confrontation with their former environment IN ANY FORM could provoke a relapse. Deepak Chopra calls it the "monkey on your back" syndrome. If you have access to his "Perfect Health" go to chapter 8. His solution is to avoid this syndrome altogether by concentrating on things that will constitute a greater source of satisfaction. In the case of exjdubs this would mean substituting their former beliefs with another kind of spirituality that would provide more satisfaction. This involves work, however, as you might want to invest not only in reading stuff that clearly refutes WTS teaching, but also take the time to discover and develop a truly satisfying spirituality all of your own. THEN you will recognize the true shallowness of the WTS sales system.
  
  I do have a great deal of sympathy though for JWdubs like the one who PM-ed you. I know some of them intimately myself, and I find it agonizing not being able to connect to them. After 50 years or so "in" you can't help but explain the facts in such a way as to be able to still look into the mirror in life's autumn.
  Also, their kind of reasoning is completely false. What basis does this person have to believe the "brethren" are God's people that can be equated with the kingdom of Israel - in spite of obvious lies. Doesn't the WTS teach us to quite false religion? Why do they flame others for sticking up with their own religion despite shortcomings?
  Theo
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  13

  Fulfillment of Prophecy

  by daniel-p in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok, i'm going to try to phrase this as articulately as i can - i'm not completely sure what i'm asking here, but if you have any thoughts on the matter please comment.

  my question is this: do you ever feel like all that wt prophecy about the fall of babylon makes sense when you watch the news or read the newspaper?

  sometimes a member of my family or a friend will rattle off on some bit of news they heard regarding the pope or a country's leader that seems to fall in line with the watchtower's take on revelation and i get all alarmed and alert - sort of a subconscious reaction.

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  Van Gogh

  Yeah, it sure is an irrational phobia that is hard to weed out.
  Your Rwanda argument says it all - WTS was happy to let Malawians rot in hell, while their 1919 tennis-match prison spell was touted as captivity by the Great Babba.
  
  Compared with the last 1500 years, the pope has really cleaned up his act though.
  Did you know his cousin is a JW over in Australia? She commented in an aussie newspaper on how he had praised the WTS in a private telephone conversation with her.
  Last thing I heard on this board is that UFO's with demons, disguised as aliens, will be landing soon in order to team up with the pope - all made to perfectly correspond with "dovetailed" scriptures…
  The plot is thickening…
  Theo
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  12

  One less thing I could get df'd for!

  by Deleted in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  well, if exit polls are grounds to call the presidency just hours into the vote count then i can conclude that in only 3 days of quitting the tobacco habit that this it!.

  7 years ago when i left the borg i started smoking cigars, as it went well with scotch, and was deliciously a naughty thing to do after 18 years in the cult(ure).

  i started to inhale, as i am prone to do, and then concluded i would be better off with cigarettes.

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  Van Gogh

  I didn't know scotch went well with cigars.
  Will have to give it a try as well...
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  37

  Anyone take up smoking after leaving the borg?

  by AK - Jeff in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i still consider it a bad habit with health concerns.

  but i am honestly attracted to the idea of a pipe and cherry tobacco.. i have joked of it some with wifey, but not too serious.

  maybe though just an occasional pipe or a cuban would be ok?.

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  Van Gogh

  Now, what makes you ask a stupid insinuating question like that..!?
  
  Seriously now, giving up my cigars was about the hardest thing I did when I came back in 13 years ago. They always were a great way to settle into a meditative writing and studying mode. And do so again I might add...
  I think that for many exjdubs, taking up some kind of smoking is a great ACT of resistance - a statement of independence.
  (BTW, tetrapod, IMHO health freaks die young because they eat too much bread/carbohydrates/soy-protein instead of animal protein and lots of healthy fats.)
  Theo